Originally, we were going to produce the journal free of charge. After some discussion it didn’t seem to be such a good idea, because in our materialistic world few things are respected which don’t have a monetary value.
However, we didn’t want to take any money for ourselves because this actually seemed to devalue the project because we all feel strongly about the Divine nature of the Art. It seemed to us a good compromise to set a nominal cover price of 5 euros and to give all profits to a charity.
We would very much appreciate hearing your views on this decision. For example, do you think that the cover price is fair? Do you think that we shouldn’t have charged anything at all? Do you think that we should charge more? Do you think that the journal offers value for money?
33 comments
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26/04/2009 at 4:00 am
AngelIVXXX
I personally believe all knowledge should be free. Sometimes it’s hard enough to find the knowledge, much less pay for it.
My best astrology program, Astrolog 5.40 is free, I’ve used it for years, it’s better than a lot of programs that costs hundreds of dollars and it works better than those programs.
I respect the maker and value it highly! It’s the 1st program to be loaded on new computers and it is used everyday. It’s a must have for any astrologer.
Do you really care about those that wouldn’t respect the journal because it was free? Or do you care that the knowledge of the stars would be made available to all who seek it?
27/04/2009 at 5:27 pm
Maria Mateus
Let’s follow this thought through: all knowledge and information should be free. That means the effort and energy it takes to acquire any knowledge and information would have to be gifted to us from those who have it. Teachers, astrologers, journalists, psychologists, researchers, physicians, consultants, writers, publishers, just to name a few who work in the “knowledge” field, would have to be willing to gift us the fruits of their labor and their many years of toiling at their disciplines.
But why stop at them? If their work is gifted, why should they pay to acquire the fruits of other peoples’ labor? If a writer if giving his knowledge away, how will he be able to pay the printer to publish it? If he lives in a house, should the builder not be obligated to gift the fruits of his labor too? To make this ideal work, not only would we have to live in a world where everyone works for free and is willing to give away the products of his/her labor — in many cases, years of labor and energy spent learning a trade — but we’d also all have to be completely generous to do this without any incentive and have complete trust in each other.
If I’ve learned anything from astrology it is what Einstein demonstrated: matter and energy are two sides of the same coin. Knowledge is not mana from heaven, it represents time, energy and discipline. Helena, Luis and Sue have gifted the fruits of their energy to these beautiful creatures who no longer have a free planet to roam, thanks to us. All things considered, 5 Euros does not even begin to cover the gift they give us or the debt we owe these animals.
28/04/2009 at 5:59 am
Kdog
Maria,
That was so eloquently written I would like to send you 5 euros.
The Journal is worth every euro cent; I vote to keep the current policy in place.
thanks to all who work to make it happen.
The paying to help animals is an extra delightful bonus as far as I am concerned.
PS. Perhaps in 1998 Astrolog 5.4 was the best, but I think that assertion is highly debatable these days.
26/04/2009 at 10:22 am
Sue Ward
Yes, but how do we explain this to the animals? I doubt that such “knowledge” would ease the pain of the hunger and beatings and appalling living conditions.
The cost of NOT charging for the journal is very high.
26/04/2009 at 1:55 pm
Peter Stockinger
It is a fact that we live in a materialistic world and, even if some people seem to think otherwise, everything has its price. Sometimes this might not be immediately obvious or expressed in any currency, but, as they say, there is no such thing as a free lunch. A side effect of this materialistic attitude is the unfortunate connection of quality and price. It is true that something that is given away for free is often looked down upon these days.
I might be biased in my opinion because animal welfare is an issue I feel strongly about. But having rescued many dogs in the past and living with two of these poor animals at the momet, I was delighted when the editors of the Tradition presented the idea of donating the subscription fees to an animal charity.
If one takes a look at a remotely similar product, for example the Mountain Astrologer, one will soon find out that the Tradition is exeptional value for money and we are only talking about a token fee to purchase an issue.
From my own experience as a contributor to the journal I can assure the readers of this web log that Sue, Helena and Luis are investing a huge amount of their precious time and work extremely hard to produce a first class magazine. I want to take the opportunity and thank them not only on behalf of the community of Traditional astrologers for providing us with a high quality magazine, but also on behalf of all the poor abused animals who so often suffer in silence.
26/04/2009 at 9:20 pm
Luis Ribeiro
Knowledge should be free? Perhaps, but knowledge is also responsibility and nowadays with the easiness, and “instantaneous” nature of the internet there is little responsibility regarding information let alone knowledge. Taking this into consideration we decided that instead of a free journal, it would be a full charitable donation. We are not getting any money from this endeavour, so in that regard the journal is free. We are offering our time and effort to contribute to a better understanding and practice of Traditional astrology and at the same time contribute to ease the suffering of the victims of another type of irresponsibility – the abandoned and abused animals. And we must consider the very little amount of money we are talking about.
26/04/2009 at 10:35 pm
sue walker
I was thrilled with the advent of this new journal. I devoured the first copy in one sitting. Found every article interesting and instructive and couldn’t wait for the next edition to come out. After downloading the second edition I was most impressed by the increased content, lots to get ones teeth into. I think the price of 5 euros is incredibly good value for money considering all the time and work that goes into it. The fact that the money is going to animal charity, also very close to my heart having rescued many cats, dogs, horses and donkeys over the years, is a noteworthy gesture. Thanks to all for the work you are doing.
27/04/2009 at 1:59 pm
Sue Miller
I could not have said this better and was going to post an answer of my own.
Hurry and get the next edition for us. You are ‘priceless’
Nuff said
Sue Miller
26/04/2009 at 10:32 pm
Ana Luisa Monge-Naranjo
I fully support your Project. The content is excellent and the price is fair. Though I think it’s great to support the animals, I also think that you deserve some money for yourselves, as editors and contributors. There is nothing wrong with earning money with honest work!
I suspect we, astrologers, have some serious issues with our self-esteem. It’s completely normal to pay for a journal of science, or medicine or whatever other field of knowledge. But we feel guilty when charging fees for our services, even when it has to do with producing a journal.
We won’t earn any respect from the world if we don’t respect ourselves first. Though our art is divine, it’s performed in a realm with material needs. We need to pay rent, mortgage, to buy food… like every body else. And these responsibilities are unavoidable. So charging sound fees for our services (consultation, writing, editing, etc.) is completely acceptable. You don’t need to feel bad about it.
Ana Luisa.
26/04/2009 at 10:38 pm
Tsering Everest
Years of passionate study and subsequent eloquent renderings like I found in your magazine ignite people’s interest, and encourage us to pursue these valuable traditions ourselves. Thank you. Your generosity and it’s positive influence is obvious, and beautiful. Surely, it brings great benefit for you, and those connected to you.
Inspired, I am very happy to offer. Thank you once again.
Lama Tsering Everest
26/04/2009 at 11:52 pm
Eve Dembowski
If we consider that money is simply energy, there is no actual value to it, and all energy needs to keep flowing. This is the basic principle behind money/energy or the breath; it need to keep flowing. If you hold your breath in order not to run out, you will run out pretty quickly, if you hang on to your money in order to have more you will end up with less.
We live in a world that has put a great deal of value on money itself, this is a misunderstanding because it is what money buys that is of value. Money represents a way of exchanging energy. It is important that as astrologers we keep ourselves clear of the poverty mentality that devalues our Art. What we do has value and we should never feel relunctant to accept payment (be it as money or other form) for our work. Of all people we astrologers should be willing to acknowledge the value of astrological study/knowledge and be willing to pay for it.
It is vital that there be an exchange for the learned energy that has been put into creating the Tradition Journal which is full of great information, generously shared. I am more then happy to contribute my energy in the form of money in order to keep things moving. Please keep up the great work and accept payment without excuse.
Eve Dembowski
27/04/2009 at 2:16 am
Merrill
Dear Tradition, I have just finished 4 years of intensive study of Medieval Astrology, (Western Predictive) from a Zoller Trained Astrologer, even though I have been doing Astrology for over 40 years I am now 63, I find that the information on Traditional Astrology is scarce in book form (not withstanding the Ancient writings) I love the tradition and I do not mind paying 5 Euros for the Animals, I understand that all knowledge should be free but I also love and respect all Gods creatures so it is a pleasure for me to contribute through the subject i am most passionate about, keep up the good work of passing on the most precious gift of Ancient teachings to a modern world that can well do with the wisdom. I look forward to the next edition.
27/04/2009 at 4:31 am
AngelIVXXX
I’ve given to animal charities too. Looked for the charity that you gave to and didn’t see it. Giving to charity is not the same as charging for something. Funny how this turned out. You asked for an opinion, then you present your reasons for doing what you did in the first place.
I gave my opinion, and it’s still the same. I’ve spent hundreds of dollars on astrology books, one of my favorites is now selling for an inflated price of $150.00 USD. When I bought it I paid around $22.00 for it yrs ago.
I’ve given free readings, always. Sure, you should be paid for your work in order to live. That you give it to a charity is great. It’s not about the money, it’s about distributing knowledge to the masses. With that kind of knowledge available, all would benefit, including the animals.
I met many astrologers in my quest for knowledge, too many were closeminded when it came to distributing their knowledge, they held onto it like it was gold, and it is in value, but it didn’t help me or anyone else who sought important information from them.
The interest in astrology is strong in many people. Many people never get very far in their quest for astrology because of money considerations or/and lack of availability of that knowledge.
Keep your knowledge for only those who can afford it, that is your choice. Give to the animal charities, that is great. Please don’t ask if we agree with this choice if you are going to defend your choice. You have already made it, why ask for an opinion?
27/04/2009 at 5:27 am
AngelIVXXX
Psalm 19:1-4
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 There line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.
27/04/2009 at 5:30 am
Neil Michener
As a student of cross-cultural Astrology, I have read hundreds of books and dozens of magazines as well as more internet content than I could ever quantify. I have to say that this is by far the best astrological content I have read so far! You have breathed new life into this ancient art, and shown me that there are others who are still as passionate as I am about astrology. My only regret is that I have to wait six months between issues, but I also understand that keeping content quality this high likely requires the bi-yearly format. But really, I am so impressed with what you have accomplished so far, and I am excited thinking, dreaming of what you will bring us in the future. It is so wonderful to read articles writen by people that are as enthusiastic as myself about the tradition of our craft!
I understand both why you are charging money and why you are donating it to charities, but please pay yourselves what you need to continue – there is no shame in earning money for your hard work – trust me, you deserve it! I agree that in a more perfect world we would all contribute for the joy of sharing with others, but unfortunately we have not attained that level of emotional or spiritual development as a group just yet, but I hope we do sooner than later. Then again, any truly developed culture would surely understand the importance of recognizing excellence, and rewarding it.
I have read some of the comments above, saying it should be free, and I completely disagree. Listen, there’s plenty of free content (much of questionable value) on the internet, but not of this quality. It is obvious to me that these people pour their hearts, minds and souls into their articles, and have created what I believe will be a classic and an example for asrological journals to emulate for many years to come. Would you really expect such excellence to cost nothing? I’m sure it costs quite a bit for this team in labour alone to put an issue out. If anything, I think the price is too low, I mean please make sure you charge enough to keep you going successfully for years to come, and if the quality remains this high, I’ll happily pay for every issue you release!
I think your charity is a great one to support, but I would also like to support your team as you have done such a great job and contributed to our field with such an amazing journal!
I can hardly wait for Issue number three!
And I would happily pay 10 euro’s for it!
27/04/2009 at 8:38 am
Sbresny, Régine
Hallo, I think it`s a phantastic idea to donatethe money to the animals in Portugal. Friends of mine just returned from holidays in Portugal with a street-dog, Leandro, he is extremley quiet and shy – but yesterday he barked for the first time, obviously he fell in love with a nice lady dog…
My friends hope, that he will not always remain so depressive! But not everybody can rescue a dog, so the donations are very helpful!
Best regards, Régine Sbresny
27/04/2009 at 10:31 am
Peter Stockinger
Angelluxxx, you said:
“With that kind of knowledge available, all would benefit, including the animals.”
Could you please elaborate on that, as I am not sure if I understand you correctly?
27/04/2009 at 10:35 am
Do Yun myung
I’m Korean and I study medieval astrolgy & Sue ward’s horary course.
This magazine is very valuable for me.
If I pay more money for buying magazine, I will pay fee willingly.
In addition, person think very pricelessly about free-material or cheep thing. I experienced this about 6 months years ago.
after all, this magazine’s fee must raised.
Also, I think this money will give more good quality article.
I’m sorry about my poor English writing skill.
Thank you.
27/04/2009 at 12:59 pm
Renee S.
Considering how expensive other astro related goodies are (i.e. programs for hundreds of dollars, courses, books, subscriptions to mags, etc), I think your price is extremely cheap. You do not see other publishers agonizing over whether to charge or not, right? Why agonize over charging peanuts for an outstanding magazine only to give it to charity? Knowledge is free in a non materialistic world but while we live in a dualistic world, it is perfectly reasonable to charge for one’s effort.
27/04/2009 at 5:01 pm
Bob Cowie
Yes, I believe the price is very fair and most generous.
27/04/2009 at 8:44 pm
Sue Ward
This web log was set up to allow our readers, or potential readers, to express their opinions of the journal, this was not done simply so that we might defend ourselves against negative comments; we really do want to know what you think. You have given the journal a general ‘thumbs up’, but we will want to know your views on more specific topics in the future, too.
I’d like to thank all of you for your comments, reading them has been a valuable experience, I’ve learned a lot and for that I’m grateful. I would have liked to answer you all individually, but there have been so many comments that it’s difficult to do, so please accept my apologies for general replies.
For those who put forward the argument for pricing according to value, I have to say that I agree and would, in other circumstances, have taken this view myself. In this particular situation, we have taken the view that having been the beneficiaries of so much in astrological terms, that we wanted to do something that would benefit all those who wanted to take advantage of it and help some unfortunate creatures into the bargain. Our authors have generously agreed with this view and supported us.
Traditional astrologers, perhaps particularly those who write, will know how rare it is to find somewhere for us to publish our work or read that of other Traditionalists. There will be those amongst you who will remember that it took a lot of lobbying and patience for programmers to consider us in their software, we were always an afterthought. This is no longer the case with astrological software, but with journals and magazines it most certainly is – hence “The Tradition”.
I think I can speak for Helena and Luis on this occasion when I say that as long as we can fit in working on the journal with earning a crust and with our other obligations, then the cover price will stay low. Should this situation change we will review the price. I absolutely would not wish to devalue or undervalue astrology and certainly feel a responsibility in this regard, and we will give very serious consideration to your thoughtful comments.
For those who think that we should simply have asked for a donation for charity separately from the journal, I would say that we wanted the donation to be directly connected to the journal itself. It’s purpose is to give, or give back (echoing Maria). And it’s true, we are the jealous guardians of a secret, universal mystery, but I will reveal it to you all now – the mystery is *hard work*. The more one invests in astrology, the greater the reward.
To AngelIVXXX, the quotation from the Bible was lovely, thank you.
To our fabulous authors: THANK YOU.
To Lama Tsering I would like to offer special thanks for the reminder that astrology is Beauty – so easy to forget.
The APAA themselves, as is explained on “The Tradition” web site, are re-organising the Association and along with that are having a new web site constructed. I’m sure you’ll appreciate, though, that having lost their current premises, their main concern is re-homing the dogs still in their care. Their URL is http://www.apaaportugal.com , but we’ll remind you when it’s ready. Perhaps you’ll be persuaded to become remote members, as I am, or even to adopt one of these wonderful animals.
To all of you, your support has lifted our hearts and without you there is no journal. It’s so good to see how many of you sympathise with the plight of the animals and have taken active steps to help them by buying the journal.
27/04/2009 at 8:50 pm
Christine N. Davis
“What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: ’tis dearness only that gives everything its value.” – Thomas Paine
For first-class astrological scholarship delivered instantaneously to my computer, 5 euros is a bargain.
I greatly appreciate the years of study each of the journal’s contributors has invested in order to produce such thoughtful and thorough articles. This knowledge is scarce, as an earlier commenter pointed out, and it is valuable to me.
28/04/2009 at 8:46 pm
chad henry
Hello, please do charge for your time and effort and expertise. 5 Euros seems reasonable to me–that’s what I paid for the current issue. The quality seems good–quite far above such U.S. publications as “The Mountain Astrologer”. The material gets a little esoteric at times, and I don’t recall if you include a bibliography of source material–but it’s great for us Yanks to get a European/British point of view on the Tradition. My only complaint is, I originally wrote out a comment, and included BOTH my emails in the one window, then when I hit “submit” I got an error message that I needed to include a valid email, and my original comment simply disappeared. At any rate, the newsletter has included a number of articles that would have appeal to a broad range of individuals, and seem to be written by intelligent and articulate (and scholarly) individuals. I found the article on Temperament a bit complex, but certainly informative. Good luck on keeping this going through the years!
29/04/2009 at 7:43 am
Sue Ward
Thank you, Chad, for your comment. I’ve experienced the problem you mention when commenting at my own web log (!). This seems to be a feature of commenting, and I’ve now learned to copy my comment before hitting the ‘Submit’ button.
Your comment on complexity is noted and we’ll keep an eye on this in the future and see if there’s anything that can be done to simplify. You’ll understand, I’m sure, that it’s often difficult to do with subjects dealt with in great detail. Nevertheless, point taken.
29/04/2009 at 6:56 pm
Chanah Morrison
Money isn’t energy – it’s money. And it’s unfortunate we live in a world where the value of just about everything, including people, is measured by those grimy pounds and pence. Unless you have a very fortunate life, you see the results of this on a near daily basis. The world hasn’t got better because we’ve put a price tag on everything, including the value of human life. It hasn’t got better since education became yet another commodity in the marketplace. In my country, it’s simply taken away opportunities from some of the best and brightest. Only the rich deserve education now, and as we all know, the concepts of wealth and deserve don’t always fit comfortably in the same sentence.
I don’t know where the rumour started that those things given freely aren’t appreciated; in my own experience that’s anything but true.
That being said, I don’t mind giving a few euros to animal charities. I don’t mind giving a few euros to other charities, either. And I certainly don’t object to supporting artists, whether they’re musicians, painters, writers, astrologers, or anyone else doing something worthwhile. But I’ve got a fairly limited income; there’s only so much I can do.
If you need to raise the price to cover your own expenses – by all means do it. I’m not advocating that anybody starve for their art. But I’m sad to see the idea that we don’t value that which we can’t afford to pay for floated around yet again.
I’ve paid a great deal for my astrological education in the price of books and time spent studying. I’ve also been given books, tuition, and courses for free, and I can’t tell you how much I’ve appreciated those. I give back as much as I can, too.
You have an outstanding journal, and I will support it as long as I am able to. But please don’t make the mistake of thinking that something is valued by its cover price. Because it simply isn’t true. And for now, at least, I’m very grateful that you’re publishing quality material at a price I can afford. I don’t think I’m the only one, either, judging from the comments you’ve received.
I know that doesn’t pay the bills. But it doesn’t make your work any less valuable. To believe it does is to fall prey to one of the sadder myths of our times.
16/05/2009 at 11:41 pm
AngelIVXXX
To Chanah Morrison:
Lovely, my sentiments exactly. You’ve expressed more than I ever could in a very beautiful way. It’s easy to forget that most of the world is not able to pay for education.
May God be with you always.
17/05/2009 at 12:42 am
AngelIVXXX
You speak for your country and the world.
“In my country, it’s simply taken away opportunities from some of the best and brightest. Only the rich deserve education now, and as we all know, the concepts of wealth and deserve don’t always fit comfortably in the same sentence.”
Your words move me.
30/04/2009 at 11:03 am
Helena Avelar
Thank you for your comment. Indeed, it is sad that we have to live in a world were everything has a price tag.
However, after reading all these comments, I think there is one important point that must be clarified: this project does not depend on profit. All the editors – Sue, Luís and myself – are full-time, professional astrologers and teachers, being therefore able to support ourselves and the Tradition project. As we stated in our first editorial, our commitment is towards astrology, which is the very centre of our lives. Additionally, we have the wonderful opportunity to help the animals (which are also at the centre of our lives, as we all have pets and have been involved in animal rescue).
So, we are doing what we love – twice! We see it as a privilege. It is also very rewarding to see that so many of our readers also share our love for the animals.
What we do need is to know that our efforts are getting to the right point, that is, the readers’ expectations. Therefore, from now on we will be posting several questions related to the journal’s contents; the first question is already posted. We would like very much to know everybody’s opinion. That is what fuels a journal and brings it alive:
the feedback from the readers.
04/05/2009 at 2:59 pm
Alan Camplin-Smith
It is heartening to read so much positive comment about donating to an animal charity. APAA has operated since 1995 but has now had to close its animal rescue centre because the land is being sold. We still have some 20 dogs looking for homes and we have to re-home them to enable the rescue centre to completely close down. Unfortunately the current economic climate is resulting in more animals being abandoned and fewer animals being re-homed: we are doing our best to find homes (not only in Portugal but in the UK, Germany, Holland and Belgium).
We receive no government funding and rely purely on the public for financial help.
To enable us to close down the animal rescue centre completely we will have to look at fostering animals and there is a cost for this in addition to paying for food, spaying/neutering, veterinary treatments – and so every euro donated is important to us and will be used to ensure a loving home and protection from further cruelty.
The animals can not thank you for your generosity but I do so on their behalf.
Alan Camplin-Smith
President, APAA
05/05/2009 at 1:56 pm
Goran
The cover price of this precious journal is really not high-in fact, the content the journal provides is, in my opinion, worth considerably more.
Thanks for all the wonderful work you’re doing for the sake of traditional astrology (and animals,too).
I haven’t downloaded the second issue yet, but I will…as soon as I get my salary. There’s a world of valuable information I’ve found in the first issue, especially concerning the assessment of temperament. This article has become my major and best reference point in that regard. I can not wait to read the second part of it…
Therefore, I wish you all the best and God bless you for your first-rate contribution to traditional astrology.
Kind regards from a faithful student of yours,
Goran
12/05/2009 at 3:44 pm
Herman Van Roey
Personally, I would’nt mind if you doubled or tripled or quadrupled the contribution, because the material you bring in the Tradition is just…, well it is priceless. I think in the future, The Tradition is going to be seen as a Milestone in divulging traditional astrology.
Utterly gratefull,
Herman
23/06/2009 at 11:50 pm
Mari Garcia
I just wanted to comment on this: the information and the knowledge that is circulated via this journal is priceless. The nominal fee that is charged is, I believe a small token towards acknowledging the energy, time and commitment of Sue Ward, Luis Ribeiro and Helena Avelar bring to the publication in particular and to astrology as a whole. I have recommended this to students and colleagues alike. Well done and may The Tradition flourish!
Mari Garcia
20/09/2009 at 3:03 am
Joseph
81
True words aren’t eloquent;
eloquent words aren’t true.
Wise men don’t need to prove their point;
men who need to prove their point aren’t wise.
The Master has no possessions.
The more he does for others,
the happier he is.
The more he gives to others,
the wealthier he is.
The Tao nourishes by not forcing.
By not dominating, the Master leads.
Tao Te Ching